Market Research

[Rob Jepson]

Avery Message Board Members and Guests,

I need your help with a little research project I am working on regarding Neoprene Dog Parkas. First let me give you a little information about the insulating dynamics of neoprene.

With regards Neoprene Dog Parkas it's the thin layer of water trapped between pup's skin and the parka that you can thank for keeping your pup toasty and snug retrieving your ducks and geese in winter waters. The water that seeps in to the parka during the first few minutes of Rover's swim absorbs the heat energy emanating from his skin and that body heat quickly warms the layer. Water also has a large "thermal sink", which means a large amount of thermal energy can be absorbed by relatively small mass of fluid. In the neoprene immersion application of the dog parka, the water in the parka becomes a thermal reservoir, heating up during periods of hard exercise then transmitting this stored thermal energy back to the dog when less active.

Neoprene waders, rightly by design, do not allow for water to get trapped between the wearer and the waders. Since air does not have the same "thermal sink" that water does then the thickness of the neoprene itself factors more as an insulator.

So, with all the above said, I have taken a very roundabout way of asking you the following. Keeping the two different insulating methods of neoprene above in mind: "Which thickness of neoprene do you prefer for a Dog Parka and why?

Thank you all in advance for your assistance.

Rob Jepson
Avery Pro-Staff Relations Manager

[Jason Zerrer]

No more than 3 mm, mostly due to the bulkiness and comfort for the retriever. MOST dogs do okay in all but the most bitter of weather and don't need a whole lot of help with warmth, just a little IMHO.

[Mark Brendemuehl]

Rob- I have tried both on my oldest Springer. I prefer the lighter of the two (must be 3mm)
Even here in Minnesota, my dogs havent seemed to mind the cold, I never saw the difference in the two as far as that goes. What I did see a difference in was that the thicker vest seemed to offer him less mobility. It seemed more rigid...
That being said, my thinner one did manage to get a few holes poked in it, whereas the thick one didn't. Good and bad either way. Just my two cents...
Mark

[Waterproof]

I prefer the 5mm over the 3mm neoprene for the following reasons.

5mm is thicker and more durable.

5mm is more bouyant.

5mm is still able to provide a greater amount of heat retention to the dog due to its protection from the outside elements better.

5mm provides better puncture resistance for the dog against underwater obstacles.

[Oscar128]

I havnt tried your dog parkas, but I've found a 5mm one fine if there is plenty of room around the legs for swimming.

Is the issue of buoyancy important too? I've always liked the idea that the thicker version might just make his job a wee bit easier, but maybe thats just an old wifes tale.

cheers
Aaron

[Bob "Chappy" Chaplin]

Rob,
I believe that a 3mm vest is just fine for insulation purposes and flotaion.
That being said, I would like to see a vest that has better outside protection, from rips and tears from under water objects.

Now of coaurse my lab wieghts in at about 95lbs, so not much stops him when he gets going either. LOL

[Brett Buss]

Rob,

I would agree with the rest of the guy's that the 3MM vests are just fine, but just like with Waders I do like having the 5MM for it's durability and protection that it does offer the dog.

Thanks,

[Scott Moates]

I have always used a 3mm vest on my dog, but as my dog got older, I switched to the 5mm as this will offer more bouyancy and more protection in hunting thick timber areas.

[Paul Cupka]

Waterproof hit the nail on the head. I agree with all of his post. This product goes far beyond warmth, as it was just in recent years that a dog parka became available. To me it is about durability, bouyancy, and comfort of the dog. In the early season I wear my 3mm waders and my dog wears nothing, but when it gets frigid I am in the 5mm with 1200 grams, why would I not do all I can to keep my dog as insullated as I am?

[Tony Vandemore]

I like the Avery 3MM dog parka, wouldn't mind seeing a 5MM at all for brutal conditions. Would rather see a more durable, puncture resistant 3MM vest.

[Wood Duck Wizard]

I would perfer a 5mm one due to the added protection from underwater sticks and things and the added insulating factor doesn't hurt on those late season hunts...

[J Kryspin]

If development allows, I for one would like to see a coated/abrasive resistant 3MM vest. Most of the 3MM vests on the market today tear too easily, thus forcing to go with a 5MM. Not that there's anything wrong with a 5MM, but on average sized dogs, a 3MM fits better IMHO.

[Mike Bard]

3mm for my dog, as it is obviously less bulky. A coating over the vest would be great also to make the vet more durable and to keep sticks and such from catching on the vest. Much like the coatins that Cabelas puts on some of their waders.

[Rick Hall]

Rob - The once commercial diver in me can't help but point out what may be holes in your reasoning, which are the openings through which water exchange is continually taking place, while the dog swims, and air exchange takes place, while he's out of the water, albeit at a reduced rate. Completely sealed, air-insulated "dry suits" are considerably warmer than wet suits, even with hoods, gloves and booties that significantly reduce water exchange.

Don't know about other folks' dogs, but my Brittany's thorax dries out under his vest much quicker than his exposed neck and legs do.

As to the insulating qualities of neoprene, most of us know it's not the greatest, just not that much air space trapped in the its cells. (And that the best way to stay warm in neoprene waders is to wear them loose enough to allow garmets under them to stay lofted with trapped air. Going up one boot size can make a world of difference with stocking-foot neoprenes.)

But I work on the theory that 2mms more - or less - trapped air space is better - or worse - than none, and use a 5mm vest on the Britt when it's cold and a 3mm (Avery's) when heat's more apt to be the issue.

[ShortReed]

Rob... I don't run a dog personally, but my brother runs a lab and it wears a 3mm vest which wears quite a bit on the chest/belly section. Maybe a vest that combines both 5mm and 3mm would be an idea... 5mm on the chest/belly, 3mm for the rest of the vest. Not sure if you were looking for ideas or just a general consensus, but though I'd throw my .02 in the ring.

[jolle]

Never used the 5mm, but I like the 3mm but have had several get torn up so more durability would definitely be my vote, regardless of thickness.

[Rick Frisch]

Fred and I had a little discussion about this last night. Is 5mm really that much warmer than 3mm? I think that 5mm usually has more thinsulate in them than 3mm. Neither of them breath at all. Is there an expert out there than can help us out?

Thanks,

[Bill Cooksey]

As Rusty would say, here's my two cents. While it hasn't happened in several years down here, there is a point at which the weather is more brutal than I feel good about exposing a dog. The last time this happened there was a static temp of -3 and the wind was blowing across the ice at about 25 mph. The next day the wind calmed, and the temp rose to about 5 degrees. I didn't think twice about taking the dog, and he was very warm under his 3mm vest.

Personal experience leads me to believe that a 3mm dog parka offers plenty of warmth in all but the most severe weather conditions, and I would not suggest taking a dog under those conditions. I say this to illustrate that the minimal heat advantage of 5mm cannot really be used in marketing as to do so would lead people to believe it would protect any dog in any conditions. A dog that is conditioned to hunt sea ducks off the Maine coast can certainly handle it, but an animal from Louisianna might be in trouble, and I would never want to get that phone call.

My favorite thing about a 3mm parka is the flexibility it allows the dog. They can just flat move better. Many people have brought up the lack of durability of 3mm, but I also see that as a strength.

I'm sure that some of you have witnessed dogs hanging their vest on buckbrush or other obstructions. I've seen it over a dozen times in the last four years, and the only dog that was unable to free himself was wearing a 5mm vest. Thankfully he was close to us and in wading water. Several of the 3mm dogs simply ripped their vests from the snag, and four that I can recall literally removed themselves from the vest.

Producing products for waterfowlers is a unique thing. Obviously you want to produce what hunters want, but you also have to bring your own experiences to bear in making and marketing a product that is right. Of course you also have to check your ego at the door and realize that many of the folks offering their input probably have a lot more experience to draw from than you. smile.gif

I like 3mm waders for the same reasons I like 3mm dog parkas. I can flat get around better in them, and believe it or not the warmest waders I have ever owned were 3mm. The downside is that I accept the fact they will have to be replaced more frequently than if I chose the heavier weight materials.

We really appreciate all of the input on this topic, and we look forward to more discussion.

Bill

[StraitMeatKilla]

I'm with Waterproof on this one - to a point....I like 3mm for the mobility, but the 5mm definitely has its place with its durability.

I really like Shortreed's idea....run a vest where the upper portion is 3mm and the underside (chest and abdomen areas) are made of 5mm - even extend the 5mm to the body midline.

On the other hand....I would also agree with those that stated that a 3mm vest with a protective coating would be the optimal situation - adressing the durability issue, yet still providing the warmth and mobility necessary for the dog.

Strait

[Travis Mueller]

Mark, how did you know your dogs didn't mind the weather? Did he tell you? Just messin with ya!!! I would love to know if a dog can think, and then I'd like to know what they are thinking. They probably hate the cold, and I know my dog has cussed me one more than one ocassion!

[Jason Zerrer]

So put coating of some type on the 3mm vests to enhance durability on the chest and belly. That shouldn't reduce the flexibility but would beef up the areas of major stress to put the durability question to rest.

[Christian Curtis]

I personally like the 3mm vest the best. I think the difference in warmth between 3mm and 5mm is insignificant. The increased flexibility the 3mm offers is far more important.

[Mark Brendemuehl]

Travis- Ok, I am probably reading into the dog more than reality but here goes. Nope, he didn't mind the weather one bit. I know this because of the way he carries himself. Head high, tail high, and not even a slight hesitation in the water. I have a photo of him retrieving a Goldeneye where his little nubby tail is almost vertical he is carrying it so high. It's also the only part of the picture that is blurred because he is wagging it so hard!
Back to the vests. No doubt the cold water will somewhat affect any dog. And, 5mm probably gives more insulation. However I still think that 3mm could be better as it allows more movement, less restriction, which allows the dog to work less. The 5mm is so rigid that it doesn't allow as much movement. As a side note, our department k-9's have their own vests and the handlers rarely if ever put them on them, because they don't allow enough movement for the k-9's to do their thing. They figure they are safer without them.
Mark

[Rick Hall]

Danged if I'm not lost again. I know marketing is the art of making moutains of mole hills. And I can see concern over anything that might even slightly influence a police K-9's ability to twist and turn. Could conceivably be a life and death issue. And thicker waders are more work because they cover moving parts and need to flex and stretch. (That and our dogs aren't the weenies we are.) But we're talking duck dog's here.

The overwhelming majority of a retriever's motion is linear, which a properly fitted vest does precious little to restrict, and a millisecond of lost maneuverability means zip, nada, nothing to a gundog. Not that 2mm of neoprene's worth of lost lateral maneuverability would amount to pecans, either.

Shoot, guys, I've a 38lb Brittany that manages scores of retrieves, sometimes all geese, in a morning wearing a 5mm vest. Surely those big ol' Labs most vests are sold for can manage their workloads in one. And it could well be that the extra neoprene's bouyancy actually lowers a dog's energy expenditure in water.

So what I'm wondering is why not make both thicknesses and market each to its strengths and sell more vests, rather than try to convince yourselves 3mm is significantly better all around with arguments that are stretching more than neoprene?

[Travis Mueller]

Big daddy Kryspin, I think the tuff dog would be perfect for you. We have done what you asked in the tuff-dog parka
The chest protector is made from virtually indestructible 600-denier polyester laminated to 3-mm neoprene to protect your dog from sharp ice, sticks and other underwater debris. Closed-cell foam flotations help on long retrieves. Guy's the Tuff Dog Parka is awesome. Check it out in the sporting dogs section.

[J Kryspin]

Travis - Just checked them out and I think you're exactly right. Looks like I'll be adding that to the order form.

[Christian Curtis]

Rick,

Thanks for your opinion...That is what Rob is asking for, opinions. That is what is great about these forums...opinions and information.

[Rob Jepson]

Christian is dead-on with his last post. I appreciate everyone's input on this topic...it is a great help!

Thanks,
Rob Jepson
Avery Pro-Staff Relations Manager

[Rick Hall]

How 'bout dog gaiters/shin guards to keep their legs from getting peeled by shallow water ice?

[Ian]

I don't think in the case of a dog vest, 2 extra mm of thickness will add much. I'd be much happier to see some nice mat/cushion that the dog can sit on, be insualted from the ground/boat/snow/ice, yet drain the water away..

Very best,

Ian

[Paul Cupka]

So I started with 5mm and I am sticking with the 5mm. After reading thru all the posts I want to point out the two most important lines I read 1) you have to check your ego at the door 2) this is about opinions. I know for sure that the 5mm that was on my dog for 30+ days did not hinder his mobility, not one bit. How do I know? Because up until frigid weather hit he was in the 3mm and nothing changed. The 5mm probably does not offer that much more insullation value, how can we compare? But it makes me feel better that I am doing all I can to help. I personally choose the 5mm as my top all around for a few reasons- the added bouyancy, added protection and durability, and for the small amount of warmth value it may add.
To each their own, different strokes for different folks, people will buy both.

[Rob Jepson]

Thanks again to everyone for their input!

Rob Jepson
Avery Pro-Staff Relations Manager

[Rick Hall]

Originally posted by Ian:
I don't think in the case of a dog vest, 2 extra mm of thickness will add much. I'd be much happier to see some nice mat/cushion that the dog can sit on, be insualted from the ground/boat/snow/ice, yet drain the water away..

Very best,

IanIan, if you're looking for such a mat, check http://www.natsmats.com/index_content.html

Takes a while for the "details" page to load with dial-up, but I think they're pretty much what you're asking about.

[Jim Thompson, Jr.]

I would have to agree with the 3mm vest. Rick is right on the heavier insulation factors in 5mm products.Not only are the vest great at holding body warmth thr protect the belly of your friend.I have vest that has a 8 inch long slice almost clean through it that would have been in my dog.

[Ian]

Rick,

Thanks,

Are these flexible or ridgid?

I hunt often for rock in freezing conditions (read freezing salt water) and need something that drains and provides some barrier against the ground.

Very best,

Ian