Attn Bill Cooksey:

[Nevada Jim]

I placed an order with the good folks at Gun Dog Supply for orange, white and black Hex Bumpers to complement the flashers that I had previously purchased through them and have commented about here in this forum.

You were gracious enough to post, in part, the following previously:

"Jim,

As far as rope lengths, there should be no significant difference, but since they are tied by hand they are subject to slight differences. If there is a substantial difference we need to find out why, and we appreciate you letting us know.

The rope itself is made from the same material, of the same thickness and using the same braid. The only real difference should be the use of black and white rather than just white in order to provide additional contrast. Just as in the length there should be no significant difference in the rope itself.

We appreciate you letting us know that the knots on your HexaBumpers came undone. If this turns out to be a common occurance it is something we have to correct, and our CS folks log any mention of this type of thing so that we can learn about trends to correct them as soon as possible.

I was one of those who suggested the length we are using. We felt that this length would be preferred by most folks who purchase bumpers, but with enough input we certainly wouldn't close our eyes to possible change.

Thanks for your business.

Bill Cooksey"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you again for that response.

The shipment from GDS arrived here an hour or so ago. I wanted you to be the very first to see a picture of all four colors of Hex Bumpers side by side, and along side two Lucky Dogs that are at least several years old, and a newer one that arrived with the flashers a couple weeks back.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/January%202007%20forward/AveryHexBumpers.jpg

I'll only mention in passing that the knots in the new hex's still come undone with very minimal pressure. The photo doesn't particulary highlight it but look at the rope end at the bumper side of the white hex bumper and I believe you can see loose rope fiber (not melted) showing.

Most importantly, look at the length of the ropes on the new Hex's verses the original shipments of flashers. Maybe finally you'll be able to see what I've tried telling Avery over the past month since my original post about the matter.

Yep, I can sure burn the ropes. Yep I can sure re-tie the knots. But nope, I can't lengthen the ropes without replacing them and that's what I tried telling Avery and it's cheerleaders originally. Why should any customer buy any new Avery product at retail and be then required to repair or modify it so that it will work for the purpose for which it was intended and purchased?

[Rick Frisch]

We sell our bumpers at prices that the competition charges without ropes. 99% of the customers are going to be very grateful that they don't have to go and shop for some rope to put on the bumper. If you need longer rope, please go and buy some and put it on yourself. Most seem to think that if the knot come undone that you just re-tie it.

You already brought this stuff up once, let it go. If we see a need to make adjustments, we will do it.

Thanks,

[J Kryspin]

What I do notice is that the rope lengths differ on the Lucky Dogs and the Avery's. In production environments, variances do occur.

[Steelers]

Why should a person have to buy new ropes? That rope on the bottom is too short to get any real distance from. You would have to swing your whole arm vrs using your wrist and momentom and speed.

This picture is just to verify the other thread. You guys keep asking for picture proof, well here it is.

I would send the bumpers back and stay with a well proven product like the ones on the top.

Jims last sentence is right on the point. Why should a customer have to do that?

[Dwayne Padgett]

It"s Just A Peice Of Rope !

[ted 10ga]

Nope it is something a person bought...It would be better served with none at all....3/4 of the bumpers I buy have no rope that way i can put on the size rope i want...But when i pay for some thing i do not want to fix it...I beleive that neavad jim was just pionting out a problem not starting a p match....ted

[Michael Weiss]

Well put Dwayne!!!

[oscar]

How far are you trying to throw the bumbers? The only reason I can see the need for the longer rope is to TRY to throw it farther. I would guess that the length of rope between the two will not equate into enough distance to make a big diffrence. I use the shorter ropes on all mine, as to not promote carrying the bumber incorrectly for a young dog. I would say the shorter rope goes with the entire concept of the Hex bumper, as it is designed to teach a dog the proper way to hold and carrying.

[Ryan Kleinschmidt]

Lets put this topic to bed for once!! I think you have made your point.

[Paul Cupka]

Jim,

We appreciate your input. While it is hard to ensure that every rope and every knot is the exact same, we are literally looking into how to make this possible right now. I ask that you email me your address so that we can send you replacement ropes for the ones that you deem unacceptable. My email is paulodsc@aol.com and I will look for your email. Again, thanks for your input. We can not correct an issue, no matter how isolated it may be, with out knowing about it.

[Montauker]

A piece of rope walks into a bar, sits down and orders a beer. The bartender looks at him and says "get outta here, we don't serve your kind here"

The rope walks out of the bar and into an alley. He ties himself up and loosens up his threads a little and walks back into the bar and again orders a beer.

The bartender barks out, "What did I tell you, Aren't you that piece of rope I just tossed out of here"

The rope retorts: "Nope, I'm afrayed knot"

[Jeff Gudenkauf]

On a serious note, I can appreciate NJ giving his feedback. But there's absolutely no need for it to turn into a discussion. Avery has heard your feedback and they will either take it into consideration for improvement if they see fit, or they won't.

There isn't a product on the market that pleases everyone, and I hardly think a $0.27 piece of rope is something to get bent out of shape about.

[Nevada Jim]

Paul ... Thank you for your kind offer. I've already replaced all of the Hex Bumper ropes with the longer Luck Dog types. My dawgs couldn't wait!

By the way, the dawgs don't think the LD ropes are too long, they have their own way of handling them. And this old man can throw bumpers with LD length ropes considerably farther than the short roped flashers. Of course some of you have claimed that training marks should never be thrown more than 20 - 30 yards, which I find laughable, but oh well ... to each their own. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/January%202007%20forward/100_0470-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/January%202007%20forward/100_0475-2.jpg

[Paul Cupka]

Nice looking hound there Jim. I only wish we could get in water right now, we are just thawing out from ice.

Look guys, be it a rope on a Hexabumper or a piece on a ground blind to a paint glitch on a decoy- if we can fix it- we will. Sure re-tying a knot is simple, but if a customer is not happy with a product he purchased from us, then we are going to look into it. And we are looking into this very simple and isolated problem.

Jim, what are your thoughts on the Hex's aside from the one with the short rope?

[Nevada Jim]

Nice looking hound there Jim. I only wish we could get in water right now, we are just thawing out from ice. Jim, what are your thoughts on the Hex's aside from the one with the short rope?

Paul ... just so you know it ... that's hounds plural as in 8 year old Cappy and 2 year old Remi.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/January%202007%20forward/100_0487-2.jpg

They LOVE the hex bumpers. They love all Bumpers. There's only one thing they love more than bumpers and this is what it is (taken 2 minutes before I threw the Hex's in that wetlands pictured!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/January%202007%20forward/100_0478-2.jpg

[Wayne Radcliffe]

That's a nice looking spot. It must be nice to have a place like that to train and hunt.

[Paul Cupka]

Jim,

Can't beat a land/water/hunt spot like that! The set-ups are running thru my mind and I've only seen a couple pictures.

Doesn't look like Cappy is showing her age too much to Remi as well. Both of them look like some hard chargers, great photos.

Do you run any hunt tests or FT's with the two?

[Rhett Riddle]

Those are some beautiful places there. Definately jelous of that!

[Nevada Jim]

You don't mean to say that you see some training opportunities in areas like these, do you?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/March%202006%20forward/Ponds3-20-10.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/March%202006%20forward/Ponds3-20-15.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/March%202006%20forward/Ponds3-20-13.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/March%202006%20forward/100_0494.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/March%202006%20forward/ca81b013.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/March%202006%20forward/100_0997.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/March%202006%20forward/100_0998.jpg

[Nevada Jim]

Nah, you guys wouldn't like our training ponds, they were designed for bumpers with at least 7" long ropes. Except for Retriever-R-Trainers ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/January%202007%20forward/100_0474-2.jpg

My wife Carol and I were the founders of the Las Vegas HRC in 1998. Dual affiliated NAHRA and AKC.

We've since retired to N TX where just the two of us and our two dawgs live and train on 112 acres of our own land that we designed specifically for dawg training and duck hunting. We are members of the BIG D HRC but are not active in the HT or FT games. We do have club members and an occasional visiting pro stop by from time to time to train and hunt with us.

[Paul Cupka]

You are a lucky man. Who's place is that? I have a couple ideas....

I like the picture of Remi "skiing" in on the entry. But Jim, I can't lie- the Hexabumpers in the previous pictures sure look like the dogs have a more confident hold than the one of your girl with "that" orange bumper....;)

I'm taking it that with grounds like that, you've seen a couple tests in your day.....any chance of you making it up to the SRS next month? Our buddy Cray is judging I believe.

[Nevada Jim]

You are a lucky man. Who's place is that? I have a couple ideas....

I'm taking it that with grounds like that, you've seen a couple tests in your day.....any chance of you making it up to the SRS next month? Our buddy Cray is judging I believe.

Sorry if my above post wasn't clear. The pics are all at's my wife Carol's and my house and on our land. We bought the land, built the house and have put in 7 dawg training and hunting areas in the 27 months we've been here..

You may notice I've kept Cray out of these contentious posts with JT and others who've lambasted me. Just because my Remi is from Cray's Lauri X Blu 3rd litter, I wouldn't drag him into the fray.

But I will tell you this ... Here's Remi this afternoon on steadying drills on triple marks of 80 yards or so using the Retriever-R-Trainer. That's because AVERY has some monumental intellects who've told me in print that I don't know what I'm doing and that marks should never be more than 20 or 30 yards, therefore I don't need a long rope on the Hex Bumpers. What a joke.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/January%202007%20forward/100_0466-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/January%202007%20forward/100_0465-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/January%202007%20forward/100_0464-2.jpg

[Paul Cupka]

Dang it, what an awesome set up right out the back door! I guess if I could train year round I would have to look into doing the same. We just finished a little 5 acre training pond with surrounding land sets. Still find new set-ups every time out there. Sure is nice to stay home for teaching and concepts, huh?

Look, friend, about what some may have said or should have said- take it all in stride. To each their own in training. Sometimes we are a little quick to pounce around here because we have seen all different types walk in these doors and then hide behind their keyboards. I know that is not what you intended at all, but it can make us a little edgy at times. I'm glad you are still around and sharing photos, and look forward to your conversation in the future. I'm actually a bit jealous of your set up down there....need a bird boy with dumb little yellow dog around in the winters? I just may know of one.

[Paul "from NZ" Stenning]

1- never speak bad of a mans wife

2- never speak bad of a mans dog

and there may be a third?

-never speak bad of how a man trains his dog (or wife)

[Allan Stanley]

Cup, way to represent.

Jim, thanks again for the suggestions, and what a place you have!

[Jason Zerrer]

Great place and great that things seem to be taken care of.

To be fair you are quite right about the rope on that flasher being too short, but to be fair no one said anything of this sort..."marks should never be more than 20 or 30 yards."

Good luck with training, it'll be nice to have our water here as open as yours down there!

[Christian Curtis]

You have an absolutely beautiful place!

[Nevada Jim]

Great place and great that things seem to be taken care of.
To be fair you are quite right about the rope on that flasher being too short, but to be fair no one said anything of this sort ..."marks should never be more than 20 or 30 yards."

ME be fair??? How about knowing the facts before you type. If some of you Avery folks really wanted to be fair, you wouldn't make statements that are absolutely false and then try to accuse me of misrepesenting those facts.

#2. The ropes are designed to be thrown 20-25 yds. max. Birds don't come from our hips, so marks shouldn't either.

Are you really serious? If so, how about including the above statement as part of the "use recommendations' and package it with the Flashers?

Let's talk about fair: Fair would have been for someone from Avery to say initially ... "You're right Jim, those flasher ropes are way too short and it's abundantly clear that we made a mistake, at least on that particular group you bought."

Fair would have been for Frisch, on behalf of Avery, to know what he's talking about before he makes foolish and inaccurate statements like "We sell our bumpers at prices that the competition charges without ropes. 99% of the customers are going to be very grateful that they don't have to go and shop for some rope to put on the bumper. If you need longer rope, please go and buy some and put it on yourself. Most seem to think that if the knot come undone that you just re-tie it. You already brought this stuff up once, let it go. If we see a need to make adjustments, we will do it.

The Hex Bumpers ARE considerably more expensive percentage wise than the LDs I bought the same time from GDS as stated in my original post on the first thread of this subject. Both come with ropes. I did not attempt to compare them in any other manner than rope quality and lengths. I stated that they were too new for me to make an objective evaluation of. However, the fact is the LDs DO have ropes, they ARE almost half in price and I've said MANY times I can re-tie knots, I can re-burn ends, I can go buy longer ropes ... I just don't think that ANY Avery customer should have to do that with a brand new product.

And as far as letting it go is concerned, I said earlier that I would order the other Hex Bumpers and report back my findings on the length of those compared to the flashers. I did so. It is abundantly clear that my original contention was correct that the flasher ropes are shorter than the other hex colors and too short for normal throwing purposes for me.

I've bought Avery products in the past because it nmade items I wanted and I felt the quality was as good or better than anything comparable for my needs. I'll probably continue doing so. That's because if and when I've had a questionable quality issue on an Avery product I've taken it to Cabela's or whomever I bought it from originally and had the item replaced no-charge immediately and cheerfully. Never in my lifetime have I experienced or witnessed a group of company employees or associates demean, belittle and outright insult it's customers as many of your misguided ones do on a regular basis.

I've taken the time and effort to post these thoughts in the hopes that the owners/management of Avery would see evidence of just how your company has EARNED it's pathetic reputation for a horrible combative attitude to its customers on numerous sites on the internet because of the misconduct of a few. It takes a long time for a business to build a top quality reputation and only a few foolish mistakes by equally foolish associates to destroy it. Think about it.

[Paul Cupka]

Jim,

I am sorry for the reasoning, factual information and education that you have had to provide to some folks here.

Please trust me when I say that your suggestions and complaint HAS been brought to the proper channels.

This should have never made it to this level, and I am saying that to EVERYONE. I am extremely disappointed in the way this has been handled.

[Nevada Jim]

Look, friend, about what some may have said or should have said- take it all in stride. To each their own in training. Sometimes we are a little quick to pounce around here because we have seen all different types walk in these doors and then hide behind their keyboards. I know that is not what you intended at all, but it can make us a little edgy at times.

My suggestion to Avery is that if your associates aren't prepared mentally or otherwise to deal with YOUR customers in an appropriate and diplomatic manner when they come into the website your opened for THEIR benefit, then either educate the associates in diplomacy and tact or close the website.

I'm glad you are still around and sharing photos, and look forward to your conversation in the future. I'm actually a bit jealous of your set up down there....need a bird boy with dumb little yellow dog around in the winters? I just may know of one.

I tried sending you a PM but your message box is full. I've extended invitations to many people to come train with us. All they have to do is act and talk decently to me. That's excluded a good portion of your associates.
And if you have a headstrong yellar female, we could have a matched pair but you're welcome to bring her. My two hunt and train with other dawgs and love them all.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/NevadaJim/January%202007%20forward/100_0363-2.jpg

[Jason Zerrer]

10 minutes of reply gone in one false move. I'll have to come back to address this.

[Roger Meinert]

#2. The ropes are designed to be thrown 20-25 yds. max. Birds don't come from our hips, so marks shouldn't either.

Are you really serious? If so, how about including the above statement as part of the "use recommendations' and package it with the Flashers?


Jim,

You have misunderstood what Justin wrote. Yes, in the literal context, Justin said that a mark should not be thrown more than 25 yards. And he correct for 95% of the the time a mark is thrown.

What you have failed to also mention when you criticize this comment is his statement that "birds don't come from our hips, so marks shouldn't either". What Justin is referring to is that a trainer should not rely on birds thrown by themselves at the line for marking training. In hunt tests and definitely in hunting, a bird never appears from the handlers side. They happen out in the field.

In training, you achieve this by having a bird boy out in the field to throw the bird or your use some sort of launcher, like a winger or a Bumper Boy.

The problem that happens when a handler repeatedly or only throws birds from the hip is that a dog will create a maximum range. They learn how far they are supposed to go out to find the bird.

For example, lets say with the rope length that you prefer, you can throw a bird 45 yards and you do this repeatedly for hundreds of times. Now, you go out hunting and you have a bird that sails 150 yards out in the field. The dog has no concept of that distance and most likely will stop and hunt at the 45 yard range they have become accustomed to.

We need to expose our dogs to all sorts of distances, terrain, cover, obstacles, etc. All of these can be worked on with your method of throwing from the hip except for distance if you are throwing from the hip. I know you use a retrieve-r-trainer to get more distance, but you still encounter the same issue since you are launching from the hip - you can only launch that dummy so far when shot from the hip.

This is what Justin truely meant by his comment.

When we train young dogs, we use bird boys out in the field and have them only toss the bumper about 5 yards in front of them. This way, if the dog breaks, the bird boy can pick up the bumper before the dog can and is not rewarded for breaking. The bird boys adjust their distance from the line to help the dog stretch out their marking distance, but the throw remains short so they can retrieve the bumper quickly if needed.

When we are working on concept marks, placement of the mark becomes key. A shorter rope, while it doesn't give maximum distance, is more accurate to get that throw where it needs to be. Having the bird boy in a place out in the field so they can make that throw so it does not require maximum distance toss is key.

Another benefit of having a bird boy in the field is to assist the dog in locating the mark if they are having trouble. If you are throwing all of your marks from the hip, you are not out in the field to help the dog. When working a young dog, they may get discouraged if they don't find the mark fast enough and give up hunting. A bird boy out in the field can help the dog by giving them an "hey-hey" and keeping the dog in the area. The same thing can be done with a remote launcher, if it has sound one it. Most current electronic launchers have sound on them.

I hope this clarifies Justin's comment and why it was a correct comment to be said.

Happy training.

[Nevada Jim]

Roger ... isn't it just a tiny bit presumptious of you or Justin to tell me or any other Avery customer HOW I SHOULD be using bumpers to train my dawgs?

What if I'm at the shoreline training on my own and want longer water marks with short-roped bumpers? What If I DON't have an assistant.

When my wife Carol does assist, should either of us be limited to shorter throws because of the shorter Hex rope also?

I appreciate your desire to rehabilitate the comment made by Justin but that wasn't the reason I re-posted it. It was solely because one of your erstwhile associates claimed that NOBODY made that statement and further that I wasn't being fair by saying they did. Period.

What you have failed to also mention when you criticize this comment is his statement that "birds don't come from our hips, so marks shouldn't either".

How can you in good concscience make the above statement. I did NOT fail to mention it. You yourself quoted my saying those very words.

In hunt tests and definitely in hunting, a bird never appears from the handlers side.

Are you serious? That's preposterous! Are you just not familiar with NAHRA or other field portions of hunt tests/trials or actual hunting where birds in fact DO come from the handler's side when flushed?

This is what Justin truely meant by his comment. When we train young dogs, we use bird boys out in the field and have them only toss the bumper about 5 yards in front of them. This way, if the dog breaks, the bird boy can pick up the bumper before the dog can and is not rewarded for breaking. The bird boys adjust their distance from the line to help the dog stretch out their marking distance, but the throw remains short so they can retrieve the bumper quickly if needed.

My dawgs are not pups. They are 8 and 2-1/2 years old respectively. Just what do you expect the 1000s of Lab owners who are Avery customers and who DON'T have bird boys for training to do? If you are suggesting that the Hex Bumpers are for "professional use only" then say that. Otherwise please don;t dictate how the bumpers should be used or ridicule folks who choose to use them differently.

As nicely as your post was written, it still has the SAME superior attitude and belittling tone of the others that I objected to. Can't you see that if you stop and analyze it for just a moment?

[Jason Zerrer]

OK, let's try this again. Thanks first off to my 4 yr old and 2 yr old for making daddy get up from the computer for breakfast, getting dressed, one smashed hand, I want a drink, and out the door to school later to remember what is really important.

So, this is great just sit back and have other folks make your point for you. Thanks, Roger.

Basically, the first part of my original post said, more eloquently than this one, you're right Jim and thanks for helping us to improve since that is ultimately what happened. It was like pulling teeth,however, and I'm sorry for the inconsistency of the response intially. That's what I meant to say short and sweet the first time, and got only half right. Paul has covered the mea culpa extensively and I agree with everything he has said.

But I couldn't let a personal attack stemming from a quote taken out of context, a context I suspect you fully understood initially, go unaccounted for. You quoted him yourself and no where in the actual quote does it say what you inferred, nor in the context of that quote. I went back and reread it, didn't take long as I knew exactly what which post you were referring to. It was obvious to me the first time and when I reread it exactly what he meant. Sure didn't call for questioning a guys intellect in my opinion.

I'm not mad and I'm not going to trade sniper shots on the internet. But I do
have a bad habit of defending myself when someone basically calls me a liar, or misrepresenting facts that weren't misrepresented at all.

I agree with most all your points, and agree to disagree on some others. I'm sure folks are tired of seeing this, as are you, as am I. So fire away...feel free to PM me, email at JLZerrer@aol.com, or call me (I'll send ya the number if you PM). We'll see you around all the great places for dawgs on the net that we both like to go and hopefully it won't be in such a contentious atmosphere.

It's going to be 60+ and sunny today...my day is going to be great, I hope yours is as well.

[Atlantic Flyway Gundogs]

Well said Jason...............this is making me sleepy!

[Justin Tackett]

Come on Jim......these guys are trying to say their sorry for me being mean to you. Just say thank you and go on down the road.

Your acting like the drunk guy at the bar who will not leave until he get's his ass whipped. Come on...now. You've gotten your last rise out of anyone, time to move over to another site and tell everyone what happened over here.

Look forward to seeing you again in a few weeks.

be good,

JT

[Derek Rambo]

WOAH!!!!


This is what cell phones are for......

[Jason Zerrer]

We must have been typing at the same time.

JT:

The ropes are designed to be thrown 20-25 yds. max. Birds don't come from our hips, so marks shouldn't either.

Nevada Jim in response to above statement and using a Retriever-R-Trainer for 80 yd marks:

That's because AVERY has some monumental intellects who've told me in print that I don't know what I'm doing and that marks should never be more than 20 or 30 yards, therefore I don't need a long rope on the Hex Bumpers. What a joke.


My position is that the first sentence does not say "marks should never be more than 20 or 30 yards." Your position is that is does. There they are for everyone to look at and draw conclusions. I will no longer be a bee in your bonnet. :)

We will meet at dawn...is 20 paces enough? ;) I hope the winky face conveys just how tongue and cheek I mean that. Again, hope your day is as good as mine will be.

[Bill Cooksey]

Good gosh, this is why I hate to be out of the office even for a day. With four pages of posts I won't attempt to comment or answer of any of the "he said" stuff as the majority of it is based on personal opinion and I've never seen personal opinion make a lot of difference on the internet unless someone asks it directly of a poster. Since this thread was titled to me I'll throw some opinion in with some observations/answers.

First of all, Jim you indeed have some beautiful ground, and you obviously know how blessed you are. You also obviously are an experienced dog man, and you have developed your own methods of training based on observation and opinion. I have no doubt your methods have proven themselves, and I'm certain similar methods and tools are used by many other successful trainers.

The rope on your Flashers is obviously shorter than the other HexaBumper ropes. I have an idea why, but until I check into it I won't post it here. However, if you'll e-mail me at billc@averyoutdoors.com I would certainly appreciate your help in figuring it out. Until I know for certain what I going on posting my thoughts on it here would just add fuel to an unnecessary fire. Obviously though no matter what length rope we decide to supply they should be of more uniform lengths. In addition, if we tie the ropes to the bumpers the knots should be tight and the ends burned or secured.

Now for personal opinion, I share with many who have posted the preference for a shorter rope. In fact, when I purchased bumpers I would cut the rope to the length of the bumper, and then I would tie and burn the ends. This created a rope that was a little shorter than the bumper. Many of the reasons have already been listed. This doesn’t mean it is the only right way to rig a bumper or to train a dog. It has worked for me, and for many who have been very successful with retrievers, but that doesn’t mean it’s the only way to do it.

The problem is that if we supply ropes we must go with one length. The length we supply (or are supposed to supply) was selected and approved by many top flight dog folks. However, if enough consumers (that’s who we have to please in the end) tell us they want longer ropes we will revisit the issue as we have on many other products. We now have your thoughts Jim, and I would certainly welcome a poll concerning rope lengths for bumpers.

I’m thinking something very specific and with no spin. Let’s all get away from the notion that my way is the right and only way. It’s just dogs pickin’ stuff up guys, and there’s no reason for anyone to have their feathers ruffled.

Bill

[Roger Meinert]

Roger ... isn't it just a tiny bit presumptious of you or Justin to tell me or any other Avery customer HOW I SHOULD be using bumpers to train my dawgs?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!! And I will do it each and every day and twice on Saturday. Our goal with the Avery Sporting Dog products is to help owners/handlers get the most out of their dogs. And we have an obligation to help customers understand how to use the product. That is what I just did and I will do it again when needed.

If a customer chooses to use the product a different way, that is their choice. But we have an obligation to help the customer understand how to get the most benefit of the product. Throwing from the hip does not provide the benefit that using a person in the field to throw the bumper.

What If I DON't have an assistant.
If you don't have an assitant, you make do with what you have. You can either invest in a remote launcher like I mentioned, or you can do walking singles. A walking single is where you have your dog sit at the line and you, the handler, walks out into the field to the distance you want and you throw the bird. The dog is then released from a remote sit.

I did this for 2 years before I bought my Bumper Boys and it worked great. I was able to work on distance with only having one person. You need a dog that is solid in OB to do this. Also, in the beginning, the dog may want to break because you are not beside it. This is where a short throw is essential so that you can pick up the mark before the dog can.

When my wife Carol does assist, should either of us be limited to shorter throws because of the shorter Hex rope also?
If Carol is out in the field throwing marks for you, why does she need to make a 45 yard throw if she is already 100 yards (or whatever distance) from you? If she needs extreme distance and the marks she is tossing, why not give her the retreive-r-trainer you have and let her shoot the mark from the remote distance?

I appreciate your desire to rehabilitate the comment made by Justin but that wasn't the reason I re-posted it. It was solely because one of your erstwhile associates claimed that NOBODY made that statement and further that I wasn't being fair by saying they did. Period.
Jim, I made my post because you have repeatedly used Justin's comment on distance out of context in the 3 threads you have started on this issue. There are numerous people that have read these threads and some may feel there is a detrimental problem with the length of the rope based on your comments and I feel that is simply not the case.

What you have failed to also mention when you criticize this comment is his statement that "birds don't come from our hips, so marks shouldn't either".
How can you in good concscience make the above statement. I did NOT fail to mention it. You yourself quoted my saying those very words.

I can say this because in your previous posts on the distance issue outside of the post I quoted, you left that key piece of information and others may think your distance issue has merit.



In hunt tests and definitely in hunting, a bird never appears from the handlers side. Are you serious? That's preposterous! Are you just not familiar with NAHRA or other field portions of hunt tests/trials or actual hunting where birds in fact DO come from the handler's side when flushed?
NAHRA has the handler carry birds in the field with them and then release the bird when the dog is ready? Do you carry birds into the field and release them in as a flush when it is convenient?

This is another instance that you have taken the literal words and twisted them. What was intended was that in tests and in hunting, the bird is not tossed by the handler, from his hand, by his side.



This is what Justin truely meant by his comment. When we train young dogs, we use bird boys out in the field and have them only toss the bumper about 5 yards in front of them. This way, if the dog breaks, the bird boy can pick up the bumper before the dog can and is not rewarded for breaking. The bird boys adjust their distance from the line to help the dog stretch out their marking distance, but the throw remains short so they can retrieve the bumper quickly if needed.
My dawgs are not pups. They are 8 and 2-1/2 years old respectively. Just what do you expect the 1000s of Lab owners who are Avery customers and who DON'T have bird boys for training to do? If you are suggesting that the Hex Bumpers are for "professional use only" then say that. Otherwise please don;t dictate how the bumpers should be used or ridicule folks who choose to use them differently.
Jim, This comment was again for the benefit of everyone that may not understand how to use a bumper to help stop a young dog from breaking. I am not dictating that this is how it has to be done, but I am say that this is how it can be done. You've seemed to dictate to everyone on the board the way the product should be changed, what I am offering to those that may not understand better is that the way the product is manufactured today works and works well.

Our products are for everyone, not just professionals. In fact, the hexabumper was designed to help stop a dog from rolling a bumper in their mouth. This is something many professionals address in their training but the average consumer may have no idea how to handle it. In this instance, I would argue that this part of the design is to benefit the consumer more than that professional.

When I have used the term "bird boy" in my previous post, I am simply referring to a person standing out in the field throwing the bumper for the dog. The bird boy can be your wife, son, daughter, training buddy, neighborhood kid. It doesn't mean that this is a paid employee of the handler as you have implied. Heck, as I demonstrated in the walking-fetch example above, the bird boy can be the handler.

As nicely as your post was written, it still has the SAME superior attitude and belittling tone of the others that I objected to. Can't you see that if you stop and analyze it for just a moment?
It's too bad that you feel my post had a superiour attitude and belittling tone in it. I was truly trying to help educate others who may believe that the product is flawed when I don't believe it is. Now, if you made this comment in regards to this post, I would tend to agree with you. Because I did go back and analyze everything for a moment and did come to many realizations. None of the them are what you want me to realize though.


Good luck with your training.

[h20fow1er]

NO... I want the last word.

No I want the the last word.

NOOOOO I want the last word.

Seriously guys. Anyone here can pick apart a post word for word and use it to fit whatever need or agenda they want.

The bickering and belittlement back and forth only does one thing... It makes both sides look foolish and immature.

If you want to address the length of the cord then address it. If you want to argue training techniques, then argue those. But stick to the subject at hand.

I am not a professional trainer, far from one. Just an average Joe that likes to spend time with my lab. So, as Bill requested here is my OPENION as a CONSUMER. It is far easier to cut and a burn a longer rope then it is to make a short rope long.

[Jason Upton]

Jim
It is obvious that you are dissatisfied with the hex bumper. You've made your opinions very clear, the ropes too short, the knots come untied, and the ends of the rope aren't burned to keep it from coming unraveled. Since this seems to be such a problem for you, I will gladly buy your hex bumpers from you. Take the money and buy some Lucky Dog bumpers. You've used them for years and you have no complaints about them. I know that my Remi wont care if the ropes are "too short", just as long as she has something to retrieve shes happy!!

[Rob Jepson]

Dear Avery MB Users,

I am closing this thread at this time as this discourse has long since served any constructive purpose. However I will leave it open to viewing as it is my hope, regardless of one's personal stand on the issue central to this thread, that upon later review and reflection we all might learn something from both the positive and negative aspects of this thread.