Flambeau offers decoys with UV paint

[BoonMan]

http://www.decoypaint.com/FlambeauUVisionRelease.pdf

There are two companies that offer this paint on there products. Silosocks is the other company that gets its coreplast heads printed with the UV paint.

Any indications if Avery (GHG) is going to add this type of option for certain decoys in the future.

There must be a market for this type of decoy or the companies wouldn't be accepting it into their product line.

Yes I know that there are millions of water fowl shot annually over decoys that are not painted with this paint. Is it just another concept to sell decoys maybe. I think the jury is still out on how do you even prove that the water fowl see it the way they (UVision people) say they do.

Just wondering were Avery stands on this topic.

[goosehunter21]

I wish there was a realistic fullbody snow decoy out there with a good motion system that came painted with uvision

[Paul "from NZ" Stenning]

Anyone read the story "The Emporer And His New Cloths"

[goosehunter64]

mmmmmmmmm, this popcorn is good....pass the salt please.

[BoonMan]

Sure I know the story it is a fairy tale by Danish poet and author Hans Christian Andersen.

I guess you are a non believer of the paint. But how do you know it won't enhance your decoy spread? Everyone has good, great, un-real and terrible days in the decoys that the birds just don't want to eat up the spread. What if this helped make those bad days into average days.

Paul from what I gather is you see no market for this type of paint on the decoys that you hunt over.

goosehunter21 thinks it would be a good alternative to be able to choose this type of paint on his decoys.

There are a ton of avery people in here I am sure some of you have something to say in regards to this paint on your product
Bill Cooksey how about you got any response to where Avery stands on this possible market?

[quackaddict]

It seems interesting but honestly I don't know that anyone knows enough about how UV affects vison in birds to make a product, be it paint or decoys that could replicate this effect 100%. Flamblow is most likley doing this as an attempt to save a falutering company.
There are more than a few studies concerning vison in birds and there are a few people who work on this sort of stuff with regularity that still don't understand the UV spectrum and how it affects vison to make such a move as to incorperate a very expensive paint into decoys that cost what they do already. Scientists don't know, Avery and Fred Zink don't know, and you and I certainly don't know. Basing a comment on a few hunts unregulated and uncontrolled isn't the kind of evidence I need to switch.

[BoonMan]

I agree addict it guess it comes down to does a company think there is a place in the market for it. I hear what you are saying about how does anyone really know if it makes a difference, who do you believe is what it really comes down too.

[quackaddict]

I really am interested in the thought of UV paint but then again I don't entirley think it is appropriate to try and get an answer to your question in the way you have presented it (note, do not want a flame war, have no beef with you). Personally, I believe you would get a faster response and a better conversation if you would have simply asked if Avery had plans to introduce UV paint into decoys. What I see now is "Flambeau did it, are you going to match it"?

That all aside, if it can be proven that it works I believe it would be a great addition to any decoy.

[BoonMan]

The question I am trying to ask does Avery think there is a large enough sector of the market that would warrant Avery to produce decoys with this type of paint.
The reason I presented the two companies that are adding UV paint to their decoys to see if Avery still thinks there is a market for it.
Simple as that
NO flame war wanted by me either

[Travis Mueller]

Ben, I'm not sure you have your facts straight, and that's not a good thing. I suggest you think about what you write before you write it.

[J Kryspin]

Gone like the wind...?

[goosehunter21]

I personally wish avery would put it on there snow decoys at least...I have 750 fb avery snows that I have taken the time to repaint with Uvisoin...yes thats my choice but for the 10-20 dollars more a dozen it would cost for them to be painted from the factory I would definately spend the extra money. There has been quite a few people converting there spreads to Uv painted spreads..more than one would think.

[Rick Frisch]

We actually did some looking into it, but figured by the time we shipped it over to China that nobody would pay the extra. We didn't get into exact dollars, but it seemed steep for not knowing if it works or not.

I am with a lot of you. If somebody can tell us with 100% certainty how a bird sees, we would consider it a lot more. I am not saying it does or doesn't work. It would take a lot of test results for us to look at. I am talking about the kind of tests that Fred did with FFD decoys.

Thanks,

[waterfowladdict1]

I think if it wasnt flambeau and silosocks but it was a reasonable competitor avery would be all over it.

Im not trying to start anything at all so please dont argue with me on this one. My point is Avery doesnt have to pay any attention to it because lets be honest who buys flambeaus over Avery, Avery loses no money to Flambeau. Now lets put that UV stuff on a reasonable competitor whos got some well known reps and well you got yourself competition.

Again

[BoonMan]

thanks for your response Rick and also to the rest of the people that weighed in.:)

[Bill Cooksey]

Guys,

I'm going to give an answer my best shot as Fred and I talked quite a bit about this product last year. There is merit to the theory in that watefowl (especially geese) see something (or things) that we don't, and it becomes obvious under certain conditions. While we didn't learn what geese see during Fred's tests of painted vs. flocked heads vs. FFDs vs. stuffers, we did learn which was most effective under virtually every weather/cloud condition.

We reviewed all of the research on UV paint, and we thought enough of the theory to test it as best we could. The tests on snows were inconclusive for a variety of reasons. Most reasons were due to the nature of snow geese. Where with Canadas we could set several small spreads in the same field and back off to record the bird's response with no factors other than the decoys involved. That scenario wasn't possible during the window when we were testing the new paint. The folks who invented the paint were interested in licensing the process to decoy makers, but we did not have enough real field data to make that jump.

We made the decision that it would not be fair to our consumers to force a price increase (it would be pretty substantial in our case) on them for something we weren't 100% certain would make a viable difference on their hunts. It may indeed make a difference, but we don't have the proof that we require to add it to our line.

Bill

[BoonMan]

Thanks Bill

[Rick Frisch]

I can tell you that it doesn't matter what the competition would do in this case. We care 100% what our competition does, but we need to have test result to back up why we do things. Without any testing, is it fair to charge more for something that may or may not be effective?

I am with Bill. It is hard to do a study on the effectiveness of this product because of the magnitude of each spread. The Canada goose tests we did were a lot easier because we could put small spreads in the field and switch them up from day to day to see what was the most effective. This snow/blue deal is a whole different story.

Thanks,

[Christian Curtis]

I agree with Rick and Bill. I'm not saying it does or doesn't work...but I would want to do some tests in a controlled environment, like others mentioned that Fred did with the FFD's before I made a decision to spend the extra money or ask others to spend the extra money in purchasing the product.

[FirstPass]

Call it insurance. When hunting public land, why chance that someone else has an advantage over you. We have too little time in the marsh to risk not having an advantage. We spend money on expensive boats, guns, calls, and decoys. Advancement into the future should be applauded in this field and not necessarily ridiculed. There are a lot of unknowns in this world that are hard to prove. Frankly, the research on the UVision website seems sound and it could only be a positive in the field.

[Dirt_Bag]

I think if it wasnt flambeau and silosocks but it was a reasonable competitor avery would be all over it.

Im not trying to start anything at all so please dont argue with me on this one. My point is Avery doesnt have to pay any attention to it because lets be honest who buys flambeaus over Avery, Avery loses no money to Flambeau. Now lets put that UV stuff on a reasonable competitor whos got some well known reps and well you got yourself competition.

Again

I buy flamjunk to leave in my fields all year to boost numbers along with Avery fb mallards. but pick up the fb's when I leave

[quackaddict]

I think if it wasnt flambeau and silosocks but it was a reasonable competitor avery would be all over it.

Again

Are you kidding? Flambeau was one of the better decoys not to long ago. I would care to bet Sillosock does more volume than even the Avery Boys. When people order 30-50 doz at a crack it don't take long.

It will be interesting to see hoe the new flmabeau decoys perform, especially the mallards, if they have a decided advantage it could be the info a guy needs to maake a decision.

[FirstPass]

If there was a "world wide web" back in the days when plastic decoys were first introduced, I wonder what the rest of the competition would say that offered only wood or paper composite. Technology evolves and is sometimes proven along the way. Stand in one spot too long, and the world will sail by. Frankly, I would like to understand this more and hear what research has been conducted to prove or disprove the concept. Right now, I know that a dozen or so will go in my decoy bag just to see what happens.

[Bill Cooksey]

Guys,

Please understand. We're not saying whether it works or not, and if it proves out but isn't available to us we'll kick ourselves for missing the boat. The problem with us jumping on the program is that we didn't feel it was right to force a significant (in our opinion) price hike on hunters when we weren't certain it would make an equally positive difference in their results. This is especially true since we understand the product will remain available for those interested in trying it themselves.

The research behind this paint is very interesting to study. This sort of thing is important, but we don't view forcing you to pay more money for something that is unproven as staying in one spot.

Bill

[wyfarrell]

I have a hard time with the statement that flambeau and sillosocks arent "reasonable" competitors. I would have to think that more white geese are being killed over sillosocks than Avery FBs.....Just my .01 worth...

[reggart]

I buy flamjunk to leave in my fields all year to boost numbers along with Avery fb mallards. but pick up the fb's when I leave

I have some fambjunk too and there is no comparison with those decoys and GHG best buys. The paint started peeling off before I even had them in the field. I also have some fambjunk floaters that are stark white and gray in comparison to the GHG. They look so unrealistic that they even scare my dog.

[FirstPass]

I buddy of mine convinced me to write directly to Flambeau. He was also curious about what they had to say regarding the product and cost. It appears that cost might not be a big factor. If it is not, what is the hold up to try it? People are going to be dying to try this with factory paint.

To save space I am copying only the response:

From: Bush, Jeff
Sent: Wednesday, March 04 2008 4:52 PM
Subject: UVision Paint

Mike,

Thanks for inquiring about our new UVision Technology. Early reaction has been fantastic. This will be a game changer in the waterfowl market. UVision does not “attract” birds it just makes our decoys look correct to the birds……because the birds see UV and regular decoys do not look correct to them because other decoys actually absorb UV. This is a proven, patent pending technology that really works----scientists have known this for years in the birding world, just hasn’t been brought to the waterfowling world in a big way like we are doing. Cool thing is that we have the exclusive ability to apply this paint to our decoys and will also be selling bulk paint for you to re-paint your current decoys.
Lastly, you asked about cost. Although we can’t tell our retailers what to sell our decoys for……our new decoys, with Uvision Technology, saw only a slight increase to our customers and likely no increase to you.
Thanks for your interest and we will be sure to keep you updated.

Jeff Bush
Flambeau

[Rick Frisch]

If the cost is insignificant, they got a lot better deal than we were offered. If there would not have been the increase we were figuring, we would have done it in a heart beat. Now, I sit here and wonder if the playing field was level between our price quote for paint and theirs.

Thanks for the information.

[CamoHunter870]

Interesting information about Flambeau salesman's saying the cost of putting the paint on their decoys are mininum. Maybe they reduced something else in material to keep the price low.

I thought that scientists have not identified 100% what waterfowl see in their eyesight spectrum? I know they know a few things about what waterfowl see but not all. We all know that snow covers that aren't the correct material will flare every waterfowl insight.

Like Rick is wondering, I sure hope this company didn't give Avery the 1st price sells pitch compared to the 3rd or 4th price sells pitch like car dealers do.

It doesn't sound like Tnt is messing out on their snow goose hunts without the painted UVision dekes.

Rick
I dont know if you can answer this on a forum, but what type of percentage or cost were you guys dealing with? I would think to some waterfowlers, a 1-5% increase would be small and worth the product while a 10-15%+ would be too much.

[Bill Cooksey]

CamoHunter870 and All,

Since our discussions with the paint folks took place about a year ago I don't think it is appropriate for us to go into too many details, and no matter what some will construe it as a shot at a competitor (Flambeau). While I'm at it, please everyone refrain from truly negative posts and/or terms for our competitors on these forums.

The actual cost increase would depend on what type of decoy you are painting since the technology isolated specific points on birds that would be duplicated with the paint. In theory only these points required painting. Some required a lot of paint, and others required very little. There are also other cost issues involved in shipping the paint to the location where they are to be painted. To get the paint to the only place we have found that will produce the detailed paint jobs we require would have been expensive. To have the decoys painted to the level we require at a location where the paint is easily accessible would have been even more expensive.

I understood at the time that several companies were interested in the technology, and one took the risk to give it a shot. I applaud them for giving it a chance. If it truly proves to significantly increase hunter's results I'll be one of the first people in their booth at SHOT to congratulate them. I'm glad to see the product getting a real shot at the market.

Bill

[Wingman]

It's almost comical to read this thread. Not because of what it says but rather to see how far things have really come (even in the ten years) as it relates to how we now in 2008 view decoys and equipment. Anyone else out there kill ducks over milk jugs or late season honkers over cut rubber tires:D ...

Cheers,

Adam

[CamoHunter870]

Bill

Thank you for the reply back and this thread has been handled very professional in my opinion by the folks here from the company.





Last night after posting here, I went over to Flambeau and check out the description of the new paint. The pictures between regular dekes and the UV are preety remarkable different from the information they posted. To me, the pictures just look like white underneath a blacklight. It will be very interesting to see what hunters experience.

[John Beckwith]

The pictures aren't a true comparison as to what the decoys looked like at this year's SHOT Show. As a technology junkie, I am interested in field performance.

[FirstPass]

Fair enough. Test the waters first. What is SHOT?

[John Beckwith]

SHOT = Shootng Hunting and Outdoor Trade show. It is not open to the general public and is an opportunity for manufacturers to showcase their products to buyers and rep groups. Lots of great stuff coming in the next year.

[FirstPass]

Sounds like a cool show. Not open to the public though....