A concern about the full body goose decoys

[Mossy]

I set my new Avery full body feeders amongst my Big Foot decoys and there is no comparing the two. Avery's win by far, so these are not comments made by an unsatisfied customer, and I hope they are not taken that way. I had a problem with the strech neck feeder heads when I tried to attach them. They don't seem to sit as flush as the true feeder heads on the body, and the holes don't seem to be as big on the stretch neck feeders versus the true feeder heads, thus one of my strech neck feeder heads has already split at the seam. The second concern is taking the decoys apart and putting them together lots. Right now I can see three reasons to still maybe buy Bigfoots. The Big Foots paint, Big Foots are bigger, and Big Foots come apart and put together lots faster. Well, the Big Foots paint has sucked lately, and yours hasn't so now we are down to two reasons. Do you see a need to make your decoys as big as Big Foots? Also are your decoys made to be continuously broken down for transport like I can with my Big Foots. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to get your decoys together :D , and I might be wrong, but I'm guessing they are made not to be broken down after each hunt? Anyways, awesome decoys and I'm happy with mine, I just had a few questions and concerns.

[Fowlguy]

I have disassmbled and reassembled the Avery fullbodies several times and with no problems yet.

They key to the feet is you need to put them on and take them off 3-4 times before it becomes easier. At first it feels impossible, but once you do it a few times it gets easier and easier.
I have yet to have any trouble with the heads as your describing, but call Avery customer service and they will send you replacement heads.

[Rick Frisch]

I like the fact that the Life-Size Full Body Canada Geese decoys are designed to be the actual size of a normal Canada geese. I feel that as the season goes on the geese become wise to the toy soldier look of their competitions goose decoys. On my GHG Full Body Decoys, the only thing I have been removing is the head. I leave my foot bases attached. I like the fact that all the parts stay put together. I can carry them in the dark and not have to look for a foot base or a head that may have dropped off. With what Avery has done in one year to the decoy market, I can hardly wait to see what is in store down the road.

[John Traiforos]

I must admit we plan to keep the head, legs intack... In that sense, I have no experience there... With that said, I think they kick the **** out of BF's.... I prefer the lifesize and I sure as hell think the paint is better than the past few years foots absolutely... Bigfoot is riding on their old (and very well deserved then) reputation in my opinion.... I have many different batches of BF ( ones made over the last few years) and none have passed the fingernail test like they once did and like our Avery's do... Even if foots get their act together and the paint gets better, I think Avery's are simply more anatomically correct, and the colour scheme is way better than foots have ever been... Again my opinion... :D

[Tom Matthews]

Mossy,

Thanks for trying out our new decoys! I just hung up the phone with Fred, and he promised me that is going to come on here and answer all of your concerns. We all agree that there are some problems with the current head attachment design, and it is being modified right now. The foot bases are definitely designed to stay on, but taking them off quickly is more a matter of practice and technique than anything. Make sure you read te directions for removing the foot bases because holding the decoy's body between your legs is key. Fred carved these decoys life size for a specific reason, and I will let him comment on this.

Once again, thanks for trying our new decoys. Please keep sending us your comments!

Tom

[FRED ZINK]

MOSSY,

I HOPE THESE ANSWERS WILL ANSWER YOUR CONCERNS WITH THE NEW FULL BODIES. THE DECOYS WERE NOT DESIGNED TO BE BROKEN DOWN FOR TRANSPORT EVERY DAY. WHEN THE TEMPERATURE IS WARM THE DECOYS WILL BREAK DOWN MUCH EASIER AS IT GET'S COLDER OUT THE DECOYS BECOME LESS FLEXIBLE. I WAS TIRED OF GETTING TO THE HUNTING LOCATION, OPENING THE TRAILER AND FINDING THE DECOYS WITH HEADS AND FEET NOT ATTACHED AND THEY WERE ALSO VERY HARD TO CARRY IN THE FIELD WITHOUT LOSING PARTS IN THE FIELD. WE ARE TRYING TO DESIGN A CARRYING ATTACHMENT AT THIS TIME THAT WOULD ALLOW ONE PERSON TO CARRY ONE DZ FULL BODIES. THE HEAD ATTACHMENT IS ALSO GETTING CHANGED, I THOUGHT THAT THE HEAVIER THAT WE MADE THE PLASTIC IN THESE AREAS THE STRONGER THE ATTACHMENT WOULD BE BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE AND WE ARE CHANGING THE DESIGN. THE SIZE OF THESE DECOYS ARE IDENTICAL TO A 12-13LB GIANT CANADA. OUR THOUGHT THERE WAS THAT GEESE ALWAYS DECOY TO GEESE AND THAT GEESE WERE GETTING WISE TO THE LARGER BIG FOOTS. GEESE GET CONDITIONED TO THE SAME LOOKING DECOYS DAY IN AND DAY OUT AND LOOK AT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN HUNTING WITH LARGER THAN LIFE FULL BODIES FOR YEARS. WE JUST THOUGHT THAT A LIFE-SIZE FULL BODY WOULD FULL MORE GEESE AND THE RESULTS FROM THIS YEAR SHOWS THAT WE COULD BE RIGHT.

CALL'EM CLOSE, FREDDIE

[Tom Matthews]

Dick,

Fred visits the message boards only when asked or instructed to do so! I can tell you that we are very interested in seeing a sketch of this bag. Please fax it to me at 901 324-0111. Thanks for the input.

Tom

[Brad Hanson]

Another A+ comment: Guess what you can blend the shells and full bodies and they look like a flock of Canada geese(as in the same species). I would always notice that I could never find a shell decoy that would match up well with big foots. Now you can actully get the same paint scheme for a lifelike complete set. WOW what a concept!

[Tom Matthews]

Brad,

Where do we send the check? Same address as always I assume.

Thanks for noticing the little things!

Tom

[Brad Hanson]

Hey Tom,

I'll give you this one for free! Just cuz its the holiday season! Next time its gonna cost ya plenty! You could always pay me in decoys? Hope all is well and the ducks start pooring into Tindels and Gary's! I hope to make it down to Casscoe sometime in the future and whack some greenheads with you and the boys! Have a great New Year! We all enjoy the fruits of your labors!!!!!!

[Tom Matthews]

I'll take the freebie 'cause it's the first one I have gotten in a long time! Ducks are pretty bad - my father and three of his friends got 12 mallards, 1 teal and 1 wigeon at Tindall's yesterday which is good for this year. You know it's bad when they give the total and include how many they knocked down and didn't pick up.

[Mossy]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm hoping someone can pass along a thank you to Mr. Zink for me and tell him I appreciate him taking the time to hop on the board and answer my questions. Mr. Matthews, I won't even ask if the problem of my feeder head starting to split can be fixed, I'll just call customer service, since I know that would be your answer anyways. :D

[Tom Matthews]

My answer would have actually been in the form of a question which is this: Do you want a new head to replace the one that has split? I am not sure that you will see one lick of difference between a new one and the one with the split seam. In fact, I am pretty sure that you will experience more split seams on your heads if you take the heads off each time as you described, but we have not been able to distinguish that the heads with split seams perform and differently from those that are not split. Just something to think about.

As previously discussed, the head attachments will be changed for 2004, and this age-old problem will be a thing of the past where our goose decoys are concerned.

Let me know...

Tom

[Mossy]

Mr. Matthews, all I want to know is if somewhere down the line a year or two from now and my head splits open even farther and I want a new one will it still be covered to get a new one to replace it. If so then I'll continue to just use the head I have. Otherwise, if not the case I would prefer a new head because it is of my opinion that a new product should not break while assembling it. I am diassapointed that this problem was not found in field testing before the design made the market because now I and many others have decoys that technically will have a flaw in them while a new design comes out next year. I don't have the money to buy new decoys every year that have fixed problems of the prvious years decoys. I do understand that all new companies have bugs when trying new things and Avery has for sure had its share of bugs, but hopefully they are all out now. These things being said, when I've had prior problems with Avery products your customer service has gone above and beyond to fix the problem. That's the type of service that builds loyalties with customers. Which is why I will stand by Avery as you get the bugs worked out in your decoys and give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish Avery the best of luck in the new year, and hopefully this year will be even bigger and better for Avery.

[Tom Matthews]

Please call customer service and request all the heads you would like.

In the meantime, please accept my apology that we didn't field test our decoys sufficiently because you are 100% right. We should be and are ashamed of ourselves for putting these decoys on the market, and I think we need to take a hard look at whether we should sell them next year.

Once again, we are sorry for all the inconvenience the split head has caused you. We will do whatever we can to rectify the situation so please call customer service as soon as you can.

Thanks again for your business, and I'm sorry our product did not meet your expectations.

Tom

[Mossy]

I typed three different messages in response to your last post, then reread your post each time. It seems to me to be full of sarcasm which upsets me, but you can never be sure over a computer. So rather than say something I'll regret I've edited my response each time. I thought I was brining up valid concerns,at least valid to me, but I guess not valid to you.

[SwampHunter]

I agree with Dick. I saw nothing wrong with Tom's post.
If you feel that Tom got short with you, it was probably well deserved. There is not many companys that would have a message board for folks to talk about the products. The reason is folks don't use their common sense much any more, and use it instead of actually going the route they should go. Had it been another company, your only option would be to call customer service, yet you and lots of others want to use this message board instead of picking up the phone. Or what about email?? You could have emailed customer service since you are on the computer. Why ask about problems on a public forum? I don't guess I get it since I know there is an easier way.
About the product testing..... That's a real novel idea. Has any other company done this, especially when they have hundreds of thousands of dollars wraped up in it?? Tell the folks at the plant and the guys that made the molds that they won't be getting paid since Avery has to test everything to the fullest, before releasing it. Yeah right, there ain't another decoy company that does this. NONE! They release the items and then make modifications to it. If they are a good company like Avery they will take care of your every need. If not they will keep producing the same product.
You can read into my post however you wish. But there is an easier way to get your problems taken care of. ;)

[Tom Matthews]

Note: I have been writing this response off and on all day, but I have a ton of family stuff to do today plus I just caped an Avery employee's first buck and I reviewed the newest boat blind prototype that is going to be the hottest blind ever produced (and yes we are going to field test it before we ship it!). Since I started my response to Mossy that you will see below, Dick B. and Swamphunter have tried to referee this whole thing (thanks guys), and I can see that it is about to turn into folks taking sides - something I should have never let happen. I want to remind EVERYONE that we are all on the same side and that I think we all have the same goal which is to all work together to create the very best waterfowl hunting products at the best retail prices possible. From time to time there are problems with some of our products, and we want to know about them, but chances are pretty good we already know and are working to repair them. We welcome all constructive comments, but I want to remind you that it hurts us when easily repaired problems are broadcast on the Internet before we have even had a chance to make it right. In many cases this can cause an full on panic, and the next thing you know, we are spending all day talking to people about their goose heads that have not even split yet but who want to know what Avery will do for them if they do have this problem. I think anyone can understand why I would do anything within my power to avoid this. After the "Hot Buy" debacle this past fall, I will do whatever necessary to avoid another panic situation, but I will not delete topics, questions or posts because once they are there, they are there and must be dealt with. If we delete unpleasant topics, I suppose we will lose all credibility and most people will have no reason to visit our message boards.

With all that said, I want everyone to know that I was entirely too sarcastic with Mossy, but he just needs to get to know me better. Hell if he knew me better, he would have just called me or e-mailed me to tell me about the goose heads, and I would have told him what we are doing to remedy the problem, and he would have been just fine. This is an invitation to anyone and everyone to feel free to send messages directly to me any time you desire. If I do not get back right away, I might be traveling or just swamped, but I will get back.

Once again, we are all on the same side so I sincerely apologize to Mossy for being obnoxious, defensive and sarcastic. He did not deserve it, and this has taught me my lesson for today - I learn a new one every day.

Please read below because this was all written when I saw that Dick and Swamphunter had gotten involved.

Tom

Mossy,

You are entirely too serious, and I want to call a truce. Come one man, we're talking about some plastic goose heads. If you wrote three different replies, then this has gotten way out of hand. Only a fool blows his horn in a traffic jam (I'm the fool here) so let's just let the traffic get moving again.

This whole thing never needed to become an issue at all, and I can prove it. If you will go back and read your original questions, you will see that you received answers from not only the president of the company but also the man who actually carved the decoys and is working every waking moment on improving the current designs as well as a bunch of new decoys. Then please read your second post. It was nice of you to say "thanks", but frankly I took your comment about knowing how I would just tell you to call customer service as sarcastic - putting a smiley face after it does not mean it is not sarcastic.

The bottom line is that you knew how to handle the split head, but for some reason it seems to me (and this is only my opinion) you wanted to push the issue. We have found that many people on the Internet simply like to find a hot topic and then "keep it going" so, instead of just calling customer service, you kept coming back. My mistake was letting you get under my skin, but you made some pushy comments, and I drew the line with the one about field testing and how you and "many others" now had flawed products. If you have a problem with something, let's work it out; but the "many others" you refer to are all but non-existent. We have had a few calls about this problem, and we have remedied each situation as we always do - just as you said we always have for you if you ever had a problem with an Avery product. HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU NEED US TO PROVE TO YOU THAT WE WILL FIX ANYTHING YOU WANT FIXED BEFORE YOU STOP ASKING IF WE WILL DO IT? I think this is a valid question and one that I hope you will consider because the answer may surprise you.

You see, had you called customer service and requested a new head, it would have been handled immediately, and you would already have the new head. Your other question about the size of the decoys could have been asked on the message boards, and you would have received the same answers. When you see me on here asking, pleading and begging people to call our customer service department, it is generally because I am trying to get a useless and NEGATIVE topic removed. It is my natural tendency to try to eliminate problems as quickly as possible, but some folks just won't let it go. Did you see back when the "Hot Buy" paint craze was in full swing how some guys would actually post topics like "My Hot Buys are bad too!" or "Another Hot Buy paint problem!"? Hell man, these topics were posted after we had spent a month telling everyone on earth that there had been some issues and that all anyone had to do was contact our CS department for full and free replacement, but some guys actually posted these topics. It amazed me but showed me that some people have an intense need to stand up and be counted no matter what the consequences are for anyone else. That is why I was constantly saying, "If you will please simply call our customer service department...” I'm sure you understand.

Here's where I am on this deal. If someone wants to post a topic about a defective product with the intent of getting a good discussion going that will bring ideas for repairing the defect, then I'm all for it. Posting about problems with products while offering no ideas for a remedy is negative, and we will not do negative here. I could have easily told you that you’re not removing the heads the way they are designed to be removed is what caused your head to split, but you would have been offended by that. Had you told me, however, that you had followed the instructions on head removal and a head had still split, then it would have been less negative, and a whole discussion on the design could have ensued which is positive. You could of course tell me that you had spent your hard earned money on our products and that you did not owe it to us to be concerned about being positive or negative with your comments. But then I probably would have asked you if you have ever been able to talk to the top management of any other manufacturer when you had a problem with their products. We make ourselves available here, and I hope it makes a difference in the products we manufacture. Talking to the end user of our products is the only way to know for sure if the products are being made right.

The comment that "Avery has for sure had its share of bugs..." seemed rude and was not very well thought out, in my opinion. I was probably reading too much into this statement, but I will remind you that if we have had bugs with some products, it's because we have the balls to walk way out there on thin ice and manufacture new and better alternatives to what has been the status quo for years. Think about where decoys were just two years ago and then tell me if you really think the statement you made was fair. A splitting goose head on the most anatomically correct full body geese ever made with the best production paint job ever offered at a price that is hard to comprehend seems like a minor problem to me, but this is because I know that the problem has not been widespread plus the fact that we are already in the process of changing the design. This change, by the way, will not make your decoys obsolete because we will always have a supply of these heads. The fact that all of our goose decoys will come with flocked heads next year at no cost increase to you might make those heads less attractive, but being able to buy flocked replacement heads for your full bodies for $30/dozen (that's right, $2.50 each..flocked!) does make them something that you might want to throw in the garbage. You see, there is a silver lining to every cloud.

Mossy, if I have not proven that your concerns are valid to me, then you and I will never see eye to eye. I'm pretty sure, however, that you can see my point of view just as I can see yours. Please give me a pass on this one and stick with us. My sincere hope is that you will continue to believe in our products and not let this whole thing deter your interest in making constructive criticism. I only ask that you consider that the damage that can be done when some screams "fire!" in a crowded theater.

Thanks again for your business - we can't do anything without it.

Best regards,

Tom

[Greg Owens]

Tom,

[Greg Owens]

Tom,
sorry about that, my fingers stutter sometimes. I would like to humbly offer my assistance in field testing your products.... :D

Greg

[juniorhoss]

Originally posted by Tom Matthews:
The fact that all of our goose decoys will come with flocked heads next year at no cost increase to you might make those heads less attractive, but being able to buy flocked replacement heads for your full bodies for $30/dozen (that's right, $2.50 each..flocked!) I can see it now, a whole page of posts about "Bad flocking on my Avery full body goose decoy heads", or how about "My decoys have a single chip of paint and I want somebody to do something about it" or "Avery s*cks, they make the best decoys on the market and I can't have some so I'm going to slam them anyways" Or maybe even "How I killed limits of ducks every time I went out over my fantastic looking Avery decoys, but now one has a paint chip in it and they are the worst pieces of crap I've ever purchased"..

Not to be "negative" here, but keep in mind, I'm just writing this with a skewed view of the general publics attitude towards products that they have purchased because I deal with this day in and day out and see it repeated like clockwork time after time.. The "general" public, and I use this term loosely, has almost ZERO tolerance for anything less than perfect these days. It doesnt matter if your selling decoys, camoflauge coats, $60K luzury SUV's, or anything else for that matter. In the publics eye, they are NEVER, EVER wrong, and no matter what, there is almost nothing you can do or say to a customer to dis-prove this, even when the customer KNOWS they are wrong.

Hell, I've got 10 dozen GHG duck decoys with at least 8 or 10 individual dekes that have at least some paint damage on them, but that's probably from the 1K miles of riding in the back of my truck on rutted roads, or perhaps from me beating on them with my kayak paddle, or maybe it was from decoys bouncing off of each other after I've thrown them half way across the pond I'm hunting, or for what ever other reason it was, oh-well, I'm sure after the abuse I gave my decoys this year, some of them are lucky to be whole.. But you know what, they still sure look a whole lot purtier to the ducks than the "other" decoys I used to have.. Do you see me demanding refunds on defective decoys? Get real..

Now, with that said, in the business of manufacturing products, there are bound to be problems, thems just the facts Jack! Did Avery have paint problems? Sure they did, didn't you see them ducking all the complaints and sticking the customers with defective merchandise? Well, maybe that's what you would have gotten from some other comapny.. It's all about how the problems get handled.. As most of us clearer thinking folks can see Mr. Matthews level of service to his customers has gone in my eyes WAY above and beyond what is the norm in the retail sector, and even dare I say what he offers is only what other companies wish they could offer..

So, you know what I say Mr. Matthews, Congratulations on what I am seeing as a very bright future for your company, you should be a shining example for other companies and what they "should" aspire to be, A hearty Thank You from me personally for giving me the oppurtunity to buy products that I actually feel good about paying for, and to all the people who don't have enough nads to say "you know what, I made a mistake here, maybe I shouldn't have expected these decoys to survive months upon months of abuse with out nary a scratch on them, maybe I should cut this guy a break, it's not like he doesn't have enough to worry about as it is.... Well, I cant really say it here, but you know what I mean..

And lastly Tom, all I'm going to say about you and your company, is BRING IT BABY!!! Run with what ya got, bring the best you can and reap the rewards of superior products and service!!!! Let the others try and play catch up to your well played hand!!!

And PS, bring on some flocked Speck FB's to go with those flocked canadas would ya? I got a wad of cash burning a hole in my pocket awaiting them bad boys!!!

[Goose Hunter]

Damnit Gunner469 I was gonna volunteer to field test all the goose decoys Avery wants to send me. You beat me too it........

[Mossy]

I'll end this here with a post to Swamphunter. Tom I'll be sending you an email soon to clear the air, and I sure hope we can. For you had read to much into my post and I wasn't trying to be negative at all just state concerns. Swamphunter for months you've been touting about the decoys. Everyoen says what have you got invested in them? Nothing you say nothing. Now we see you are working with them on paint designs? I would think you have something invested even if it's just time and pride. I guess I feel someone who could throw stones at someone else would have the guts to take the stones when they get thrown at them. Maybe you should get to know me first. Maybe you should ask if I've called Avery with other problems, which I have when I've needed to and it has been dealt with great. I wasn't screaming fire, but you sure like to jump in without getting to know someone don't you. Why don't you ask if I've picked up the phone and called Avery about problems instead of just assuming I never have. You'd be surprised at my answer. You are no different then someone jumping up and offering their two cents about products they don't know about when you jump on someone you sure don't know a damn thing about. Let's see this started out as a question to Avery not a question to Swamphunter, kind of like the decoy situation you were just talking about when people just jump in when the conversation doesn't deal with them. Maybe you should follow your own advice about emailing instead of just hikjacking a thread. Oh, by the way, read into my post however you wish.

[Tom Matthews]

That's it guys. This thread is over. I'll get rid of the message boards before I'll see them turned into this garbage. From now on, if anyone has anything to say to someone else that might be construed as negative, hostile or otherwise counter-productive, please send them a private message and have at it in private. I will follow this rule as well.

Thanks for the input from everyone.